EP 3 The Network State Conference

EP 3 The Network State Conference

Madyx and Rauriki catchup for the first time in 2024 and discuss the recent Network State conference and connections to their work at Whanake Foundry.

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Transcript:

[00:00:00]

Rauriki: Um, like that message you sent, like should we have a kind of impromptu chat and maybe that this can just be like an impromptu about all the things swirling that are,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: that are ahead. Um, yeah, but the state, everything is in is crazy right now, like,

Madyx: Yeah. A hundred percent bro.

Rauriki: Yeah, I, I want us to have the governance structure of like a forest

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: it all to be, everything is, everything matters. Everything works, symbiotically, and, and there are no, um, extremely, you know, all trees have a, I I, there was a, there was something I read about growth. I was like, all trees have a limit and they grow to their height.

And then once they Done growing and they fall over and they feed back into the system. But there's no infinite growth, there's no

Madyx: Um,

Rauriki: um, parts of the, of the hierarchy.

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: we, um, and trying to look, look up our structure. [00:01:00] We, we, we need a structure. We, we, uh, we need some funding. We need people be like, oh, you're two business.

Oh, we'll send some money.

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: and we can either be like a limited liability company and then that, that

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: us the head either as directors

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: or we have shareholders, which is separate from workers and shareholders.

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: get to who's questions around who's profiting from everything. Um, and then even the, the whole aspect around profit and becoming a non-profit, becoming a collective or co uh, cooperative. Yeah. So those are the kind of the tricky parts brain. We have been trying to.

So that's like a side quest we are going on is establishing our, our structure, what a DAO looks like, uh, that's appropriate for this legal system in New, in New Zealand. And then you just keep touching base on how that goes offline. And then yeah, kind of just talk about it here. But I think that's, that's where we are at.

See, get law, get our legal help before we look like we're, [00:02:00] uh, laundering money and taking things

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: putting it in the

Madyx: a hundred percent.

Rauriki: and all like that. We're like, we want collective, collective decision making and hyper transparency. And they're like, you look like you laundering money. That's what

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: that's what we don't want.

Madyx: I definitely would like to avoid that. I like to avoid being an enemy of the state just because we're trying to do something egalitarian. You know,

Rauriki: We already like the pro, the principles of what we are,

Madyx: bro,

Rauriki: what

Madyx: we're already

Rauriki: So,

Madyx: a parallel. Civilization's already not gonna be, we can't tax avoidance.

Rauriki: okay. Cool. Well that's cool.

Madyx: Yeah, but it's a definite side quest to the main quest, and it is important. And it is one of the things that we wanted to offer was some guidance to other people in that would like to do something similar. So, you know, I was tempted to be like, uh, you know, maybe we find alternative to doing that. But then I realized like [00:03:00] part of it is to find the best viable option and share that with others.

That's part of, you know, our mission is this is the best option we found, and we'll share that blueprint.

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: Um.

Rauriki: And I think that the reason that this side quest is so important for us in developing this blueprint is we, um, we talked about the future, these Foundry type futures we are envisioning and, and forecasting and projecting. And then we step it all the way back to here and we are asking ourselves how can we, um, meet the principles of what that future society is based on within the context of today and setting up hierarchy and all these other things. And it may not be hierarchy, meaning that may might not be the thing we're trying to come away from, but, um, creating a collective decision making and, and operating structure aligns with those futures is what we're trying to do and trying to invest time into as well. So we've got [00:04:00] the, the, um, future and the present kind of together and trying to be a good reflection of what we are creating.

Madyx: Yeah, no, a hundred percent.

Rauriki: Well,

Madyx: Um.

Rauriki: some other, what are some other yarns we got going,

Madyx: So I was, um, the, the network state, the, the guy who wrote that book had, uh, he put on a conference like two months ago and, uh, he mentioned he's, he's, he was gonna put out like network State 2.0, like addition of that book, which is cool. But, um, yeah, but I threw it on and I was just . It definitely started me on a train of thinking around our mission, this, the guy, I think it was Praxis, the, the co-founder of Praxis Preve, uh, presented something.

And basically what he did was they had an online community and he said, oh, we have our own vision of how we'd like to [00:05:00] live. I don't know, I wouldn't say it's a fully game B, but it was better than now. But it was more tech focused than our vision. But anyways, they were like, Hey, things sort of suck now what if we built a city, like on these principles?

That's not a radically new concept, but what they were able to do is with, with. How easy it is to form online communities. A bunch of people were like, hell yeah, I'm I, I'm down for that. And then they were able to create, um, proof of demand through either commitments to make a down payment or for small deposits that then they used as proof of demand to get, uh, capital fundraising and to build a new city.

And then they use that funding commitment to negotiate with countries to get like specialist circumstances to build this new city. So it's not what I'm proposing Funy do, but it made me think like, is that a more direct path? Is that funy generates [00:06:00] what, uh, take one step back. When we show people some of the visions of Funy and talk about people already are like, yeah, that hell yeah.

So I'm like, so we're already sort of building demand, but do we try? Yeah. Do we think about out, you know. Do we think about instead of waiting or influencing someone else to do it, do we think about doing a piece of it here? Our own version of it? I don't know. That was just, they just, you know, like, can we share these things?

And then people are, if people are interested, then is that something that can drive action sooner? Do you know what I mean? And it's a whole different pathway in some ways, you know?

Rauriki: I think that's a wicked example we shared, bro. I think the, what the online community was able to achieve, I think with a critical mass, were able to [00:07:00] leverage their community to then start, they then curate capital, um, and maybe as, as building an online presence where everyone there with the type of thing you're creating.

Is that the step that needs to be done to then go into tangible action? Or do we just jump on a part of like, do we,

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: yeah. How do we, do we build it from scratch? How is? Or do we say, Hey, we are all kinda similar trying to build these

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: Should we build our a collectivize essentially and, and then try and achieve something?

Then um, whereabout was this,

Madyx: Uh,

Rauriki: was it a global online community or was it Majority a similar geographic layout.

Madyx: I think it was, it's a global community, but they're gonna build this city somewhere on the Mediterranean coastline. That was their vision that they.

Rauriki: it's quite buzzy. I, I remember seeing houses in, I think it's Spain or Italy on along the

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: They're like just [00:08:00] so, so cheap to live in and,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: buy. So, that's.

Madyx: So basically, yeah, it just made me thinking, you know, that's actually not as cr hearing that story and how simply he, the, the co-founder of Xi laid it out. I was like, you know, that's not as ridiculous of a concept, you know? And if, if we have a pitch that people resonate with in the past it was so hard to take that step.

Like you could sort of get people to be like, yeah, that's cool. And there's been all sorts of intentional communities, you know, and most of those have been mildly successful. And, but, so I'm just thinking, you know, have we gotten to a point where maybe there's less impediment to building a physical manifestation of this thing?

You know? And there's

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: way more avenues for funding now. And the main thing that funders often want is like demand proof. And if you have like this demand proven through people [00:09:00] commitment, committed to buying into this place and, and living there, or, you know, investing in that, I don't know. It's just, I think it's something worth exploring around

Rauriki: Yeah,

Madyx: That's all. You know, I just started thinking like it's a more direct path to doing something which was a, you know, it was less like relying on other people to do it.

Rauriki: that's tricky too because for me, I'm, it's tricky 'cause the, the animus part comes up and then we've talked about the local and the global Application of animism. Um, and I, I think having a global application of animism could place you anywhere in the world as a global citizen and having different principles, of respect for our environment and our planet.

You can do that anywhere, but then when you localize it, I'm putting my Maori now far and probably move over to the Mediterranean. It would be difficult for me to practice my localized [00:10:00] animism through, um, Maori practices, because I have that tie here and I would, and see that would be, it would be, it would be a detrimental on one aspect because could just set up somewhere rapidly in a place where the cost of living is probably reasonable. The weather's good. Um, but it's far. But then there's still opportunity to set up satellite communities around, around the world. But I suppose having a base of operations in the first instance would be what you want first. So it's kind of tricky. I've seen myself sitting in the satellite alro base, animism, uh, spot.

But, but that's probably the worst place to set up. 'cause you know, you're so, you're so distant. if we're looking at it from a global and local,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: wanna set up a global base and then you'd set up your, your hubs. But, um,

Madyx: unless,

Rauriki: is, I like the idea of setting up something tangible

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: physical. It may, and it may not have to be huge, it may just be even

Madyx: Yep.[00:11:00]

Rauriki: fuck.

Like, I don't even know what, how, what's the minimum lovable product. I like how you

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: for, for this.

Madyx: Well this is the really, I mean this just, not to keep plugging the net, the network conference, but the cool thing about that, it was all different examples of people doing real parallel civilization things now. And did you know, no one was anyone talking, I don't think anyone mentioned animism, but there was people talking solar punk, which was cool.

Uh, but it, it was, it was very tech focused. It was very alternative and it was awesome. Like I think we resonate and share values on a lot of stuff. The animism piece, I think that is our, our number one base and our core, and I think it's a unique. Aspect of what we're presenting. And what's amazing about this distributed approach is you don't have to have one size fits all.

That's what's so cool. You can be a member of this syndicate, um, [00:12:00] and be different but share a lot of stuff. Um, so we're always going with this, the minimum product. There was all different types of people. There's people that were doing like one node as in like a building and people were all moving into this one apartment building in New York City and they were creating their like sort of node like that.

There's a guy, there's a organization called Cul-De-Sac that built, that developed like one, I don't even know if it'd be a full neighborhood, but like one, yeah, let's say a small neighborhood in an existing city. So that's like in the next scale up. And then there was Praxis, which was building a whole city around this concept.

And they had . And then there was a, another group called Cabin, which was even more distributed, where they had different nodes around the planet, but you had sort of like a blockchain based citizenship, um, card. And that's, that was your membership. And there it was local [00:13:00] nodes, but it was more distributed.

So it was cool. There was people doing all different versions.

Rauriki: so cool. love the idea of geographically placing yourself within Close proximity of other people with like,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: Um, I, I, I always float that idea. I'm like, man, you know, we should, get some land like, and up, you know, set up a space where we can all be together and you can have shared resources and um, skills and and all that stuff.

And very quickly I wonder how you pivot away from becoming a cult. 'cause

Madyx: I.

Rauriki: it's really flavors of culty come, cult come in. Um, I don't know. It's a tricky one. Maybe it's just in the branding and the marketing. Um.

Madyx: That's definitely the angle you wanna veer away from. And even like a lot of the, in the earlier, I guess, predecessors were like intentional communities that were set up. You know, there was [00:14:00] sort of a lot of hippies that founded these intentional, uh, communities from the sixties onwards. And they be, and uh, most of 'em end up being quite like, insular, you know?

And, um, if they're not culty, they're just become quite insular. And I think some of the vibe was like, that thing sucks that we're gonna get away and make our own thing, which I, what I, but what I like about the network state or a parallel is it's like, this thing sucks, but we're not. , we're not isolating.

We're just gonna start building our own thing. And then, like we talked about, the little like syntropic nodes that spread out. We're building, well, at least my thing is like building within, like is there a, is there like a degraded section of Auckland that if we got interest and that we could actually create the beauty there?

Like rather than like, we're gonna remove ourselves, like you, that thing sucks. We're gonna go out to the wilderness in the core Mando and build this. You know, it's like

Rauriki: Yeah, that's,

Madyx: is the

Rauriki: uh.

Madyx: updated approach you.[00:15:00]

Rauriki: Yeah, that's one of the core principles I read somewhere about solar punk, solar punk. It's not like a completely new beautiful city. It's, um, building that was in the cracks of the existing city. And so that's, um, yeah, it's tricky. And then in my head it's like, boom, gentrification.

Like is, do we, are we just gent gentrifying? And then what is our, what would that community's impact be on them, on the existing community? Um, would we, 'cause you, you'd wanna, you'd want to empower, you'd want that to empower surrounding communities. 'cause you wouldn't want to set it up. for example, you don't wananga up to South Auckland.

Be like, yo, this place is run down. We'll buy it for cheap, do it up, set up a tech community and, then it becomes insular amongst itself and it only, um, is connected to global. connected globally, but like you just on the other side of the fence, it may just be still, um, no, have no other, um, positive benefits.

Madyx: And that was really the one we visited here in Roni, [00:16:00] is this sort of like quite nice, like sort of eco little village. And then on the neighbors it's just like poverty, like just over the fence, you know, just radically different worlds and nui, you know, like you want it to be porous and you want it to, but you don't want it to be subsumed by game A.

That's the trick. So you, and you don't wanna, you don't wanna fall on the trap to feeling like these parallel seeds that are growing from the cracks have to atone for the failures of game A because they'll never be a, that's the really, I think, tricky balance is you don't want to exploit or make anything worse.

But at the same time, like these notes can't pay for the sins of game a, you know what I mean? Like, but if you can keep creating avenues where you can, where if they are open and provide true opportunity for [00:17:00] people to come and join in sharing that abundance, I feel like maybe that's the best avenue because there's, there's gonna be constant exploitation in game A right.

No matter what we do, it is gonna keep creating poverty.

Rauriki: Yeah,

Madyx: It's really.

Rauriki: that's a tricky one. Um, like, uh, I went to the library today and I always remember that some, some saying I saw an internet. It's like the library's the only place you can be for free. Uh, it's the, in our society now, um, other than like out in the, out in the tile, but it's, um, you know, a library can go there.

You don't have to spend any money. You can just be present and then access whatever the resources there are. And it does have a, it will have a net positive effect on the, on the community and, and a node. A node or, or network state node should operate like that as well. Um, well we can't ask [00:18:00] heaps of, of it 'cause we might be put a, um, you know, an impossible task ahead of us.

But these are all the considerations for that future, for the roadmap. And it might look like this now eventually, um, go out to be something else. But those are some, there's some wicked examples.

Madyx: Yeah, it.

Rauriki: and I, I like, I like the word porous though. Yeah. It has to have, it has to be able to interact with what's around it and not be numb to what's the realities are going around.

Madyx: I think that's definitely the big evolution of the thinking is not to leave. And that's, that was really the sixties vibe, was this thing's, you know, to leave it and make signs. Separatist. Now it's like very solar bunk, like used to like, let's plant some beauty within the cracks of this stick hanging thing, you know?

And then also if we apply the hospice, same thinking, you know, instead of like, I think the hospice thing is a good framing for how you deal with it because [00:19:00] you, it's like this, there's things, there's inevitable things that happen and you're not, you're not gonna fight against that. Uh, if someone's terminal or someone's like dying, then that is what it is.

and you do your best to like have honor and dignity and comfort and pace to that process. And I feel like there's a lot of things that we can't change about game A right. And I feel like game A is really good at sucking you into trying to do that, you know? But if you apply, like just whatever we can do and to maximize dignity and healing and pace to game a, but also at the same time, letting it pass on, it seems like the, at least the best I framing I've come upon for how we should interact with it, you know,

Rauriki: Yeah. Yeah.

Madyx: in this interim period.

But yeah, it's super good point. And there are.

Rauriki: I like, yeah, I like that. Um, you're bringing up the, [00:20:00] the cha the challenge almost of can we do something tangible now? Like how much thinking is enough thinking? Are we just gonna imagine futures and get people excited? And then is the point of, of, of creating, um, 'cause that's what the Foundry part is about.

It's,

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: it's, uh, nod to creating tangible things. Um, yeah, I do like that I the minimum lovable product of a place

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: creating a single node, even a, even a nomadic node that could potentially move around, uh, whatever that may be.

Madyx: If you think of, see the, the minimum lovable product for our for animus solar bond gave me. . Um, we're trying to develop the non-physical collateral, right? You know, that that's what we Right. And that's super important. Infrastructure, for lack of a better word to sustain, a different way of living, [00:21:00] a different civilization that we can be excited about waking up four in the morning, you know, and your kid, you know, your, your daughter can be excited during her life.

And that's, um, I think, sorry. So that's the, the non-physical piece that we're developing, but that's just as important infrastructure. But then the physical piece, um, I don't think the scale is that huge. I don't think we need to build a city. I like this idea of a little cul-de-sac or neighborhood. And if you think about 5 million people know to all, how many people are dissatisfied, how many brilliant people out there that are stuck in bullshit?

And it's not that this is like zero to utopia, but it is, I think it would be a tangible improvement in people's lives, just being

Rauriki: Yes.

Madyx: surrounded by others in your tribe, for lack of a better word. If you, you know, um, if you had, you know, a hundred people, [00:22:00] that would be huge, a hundred out of 5 million that just align with that vision and are like, yeah, I'm able to commit to moving to this.

Part of, that's not that, I don't think that's a, a crazy bar to get over. You know what I mean?

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: Whether it's a house or a few houses or a street or whatever, you know, it's not, the scale is not that crazy. I think.

Rauriki: And I think that's what has to be, that's what the vision and the non-physical infrastructure has to be so strong to inspire that those early adopters to go through. 'cause it will be tricky. It'll be, it will be. I. Uh, challenging, um, to go so far against the norm to set something up. Um, I'm just thinking of,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: you know, the, we've got a big Huey down here at the Marae, and that marae is pretty much set up by [00:23:00] a group groups of families who were displaced from the land confiscations in Waikato. And so all the land was taken, and then there was a decision made by a lady pu, um, as well as, uh, her, her predecessors the, the TGA to, to establish a base for all the people who had been displaced. and that's what AWA is, the, the marae here. that's what it was all different families. It wasn't one, uh, it was one wider iwi, but they were all from different hapu, but they all had a similar vision to come together to create a space where they could all to thrive. and that's what that became a Mara. Um, is kind of what's diff it's a difference to other marae across There are strongly linked to that place and everyone will a similar, uh, ancestor and now all know the stories of the t [00:24:00] there. But, but this Mara here is, um, one of my Aunt Naura uncles, he said, we are seventh generation because of the land wars. And so we've been displaced from my, my grandfather and his Una. They were, they were at Naati, which is out tu and they got moved up to Tu and then they went to Mesa and then they landed in So, um, yeah, they were creating a space to thrive. And so I like to look at what our what our ancestors did, because they set really cool blueprints around how they went about them.

And then I think, I always think, okay, how do I, how is that appropriate to now and what are the what in this context and what we have today? Um, the Tonga was just a, uh, the Maori king movement was a step towards collectivization in the face of great challenges that, and at the time were, um, you know, colonization and land [00:25:00] confiscation, bloodshed. But that's not to say that's not relevant now, you know, we, we are facing now the face, in the form of capitalism, globalization, and, um, hyper consumerism, all of those things and climate change as well, chuck that in there. And so I think collectivizing is, is one thing to learn from, from our So yeah, those are the kind of things that, just pulling on my local animus node of, of, of, uh, experiences.

Madyx: Yeah, that's a,

Rauriki: I suppose, of establishing and, uh, community the, I suppose it, it being done before within the context. So it was before I was saying, um, it was making a cult, but, but there are other examples of collectivization, including communities. Um, yeah. Sorry, I just went on a bit of a

Madyx: No, that's good.

Rauriki: week we've got a big hooey.

Madyx: Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, that's talking about some of the precedent from Ahmadi Worldview or,

Rauriki: [00:26:00] yeah.

Madyx: history, Maori history, and that's super appropriate. 'cause that is, funy is trying to allow space for both these worlds, you know?

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: And I think

Rauriki: And it's, there's similarities, you know,

Madyx: mm-hmm.

Rauriki: It's cool because we could talk about these overlaps where yes, we are all thinking these same things. Well, how would it, how would. Um, eventuates within a local or global context. You know, it might be the Mediterranean or it might be a local marae.

The, the principles are still the same as about how can we come together as people,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: geographically close, sharing the same principles and creating prosperity for, those around us. So, yeah.

Madyx: And I think that's a really powerful component, I guess, that, um, that you bring to the scope of, uh, from your ancestry, is that these, uh, mission-based studies, they're gonna set up. They won't have any, they'll have to build all of their connection to that new place, right? [00:27:00] They'll have to

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: navigate the history of that place and setting up their, um, sort of from scratch or, you know, based on the history of, of what's coming before them.

But here, there's. There's a deep history of connection and

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: of an indigenous, of indigenous people, of Maori people. And that certainly adds a whole different grounding to, you know, anything that happens here that they, that they, they won't have that initial seed element in those

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: establishments, right?

It'll be so from scratch. It won't have much grounding them.

Rauriki: But, but, um, they will still have the opportunity to acknowledge the history of the land and the uniqueness of the, the ecosystems around them and grow and develop that just like Maori did. You know, when

Madyx: Um.

Rauriki: we, we had to grow that relationship with our ua. Um, one of my mates, he told a cool story about the, uh, [00:28:00] about the mo, I think it was the mo, um, allowed when, uh, Maori ed because of, you know, Pacific Islands and they lived on all the islands. Birds were migratory. So, um, when birds came, you just, you just went hard. And then, um, and then they'd go. And so there were seasons when the birds would come and go, and they were all coming and going. And, um, they tried to do that same practice here in so it just went hard. And then, um, yeah, the populations, they, the population declined and they didn't come back and they realized, oh, were coming and going to And so, um,

Madyx: Uh

Rauriki: practices changed then.

Madyx: hmm.

Rauriki: the, the, uh, Maori adapted to how living in the islands change varied based on, um, you know, the different, the ta, the ecosystems, the birds. Um,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: he, he always talks to me about, he's making a point too that, um, the inter. [00:29:00] Introduced pests of, I think it was the Kuri the real big impacts on the T and that's what took out mo, uh, the MOA and Greater, greater than Maori themselves was the PEs was that way that were brought over.

Madyx: Um,

Rauriki: So, um, yeah, it's that, you know, you don't wanna have a detrimental effect establishing somewhere overseas. have to have an understanding of the existing ecosystems.

And, um, yeah, it's kind of tricky now in these days where everything just landscaped and then just concrete it all, and then you could just, you can effectively create a non-porous where you just block it out

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: the surrounding environment. So, but those are the cool considerations we can make when we have this animus, uh, layer.

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: we can start unpacking all of these things.

Madyx: And that's the point for our mission, isn't it? That animus, that the animus angle is open to anyone. [00:30:00] Uh, you don't have to have a heritage or a wha ka p to a certain lineage to be able to say, to identify and live in an animist way and to create your own, um, version of that. And then you can have a lot of, I think, um, sympathy or synergy or comradery with other animist, uh, groups, you know, and, and one of those might be Maori people, you know?

And that's a great way to find common ground, I think. And yeah, I just think that's a, it is such a powerful component of what we're advocating for here in this place. That, that this is a, a way, um, and it made me think of Sinai through, in our possible things to discuss was I was reading about, um.

Scientists mapping out this submerged continent that New Zealand is sort of the mountaintops of. Right. And then I was thinking, say there's some massive plate tectonics and [00:31:00] it like uplifts and there's a bunch of new land. It's like, do I rush to that new spot and be like, I can be indigenous here? 'cause it's fra like

Rauriki: Yeah,

Madyx: a, you know, that's not saying because,

Rauriki: a good point.

Madyx: yeah, because I was thinking there's no, everything has a history and a backstory, although, but if there's a newly emerged pace, right, then it's sort, it's, I don't know, it just made me think it was just an interesting thought exercise.

Like the first people that move, that move there, then are they, if they stay there and build a relationship with the land and do they become the indigenous people of that place? You know? Because for new indigenous people, but I was like, that could be an.

Rauriki: Yeah. That is crazy. What does new indigenous mean? Hey, if, if, if you have the emergence of land, um, and like the story of Maui fishing up It's a story of us navigating to Maori, navigating to Like that land emerged, we

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: [00:32:00] indigenous to that land. Um, and so there's like, it has happened, like, you know, so

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: say yeah, and I'd say it would take a while for, for that to be established.

But you know, if you fast forward a few hundred years, you can be like, yeah, yeah, this, these are the over here. over here.

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: you, just

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: the middle of the Tasman. Um,

Madyx: bro, that's,

Rauriki: crazy.

Madyx: you know, all of my ancestors moved from a place to another place that people already lived, you know, so. that has its own baggage, which usually generally is not positive. But that, that just made me think, you know, like that's a, and like you said, it would take a long time, but then you could know you're a part of establishing a lineage

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: that people could be embedded in without a history of taking something from someone else, you know?

And then,

Rauriki: yeah, that is the same with [00:33:00] Awa. Yeah. Um, the Mara was, it's been there for, I say a hundred or a hundred. Yeah, it was a hundred years, not 150, maybe a hundred years.

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: but you know, before that there was no Mara, so you, or you, or you can say you were from, from there because it wasn't

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: Um, so yeah, that's, but there's, there's difference for some whanau who didn't lose their land.

They were, they were just posted up, like a lot of Wau on the coast or up north. then there's been there since they dot, since, since the landing. yeah, it's all, it's, it's really interesting. And I think we had one corridor around the continuity Of stories and how storytelling holds, holds histories.

Madyx: Um,

Rauriki: and it was a social technology used by people. or storytelling was a social technology used to continue the stories of how we got here and, and everything. Um, [00:34:00] around, I don't know, like settling, establishing space, becoming a part of the ecosystem. And then we were talking like far, um, what would be a digital equivalent to that social technology and, and how do we hold,

Madyx: um,

Rauriki: how, what, how do we create something that can hold the continuity of this, the thinking? And that's one, one of the things we wanted was

Madyx: yep.

Rauriki: can come and go from, from but somewhere this type of thinking

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: Um, hey, there might even be a songs you know about it. To, to hold it

Madyx: True.

Rauriki: it, pass it on. Um. So, yeah, no, those are some, the new land of after some plate tectonic activity, I'm, I'm sure if you get there before some, uh, multinational

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: that wants to mine all the resources you'll be in

Madyx: I'll show up like it's all good. And then like China or the US is like, this is our like, damn.[00:35:00]

Rauriki: You are sitting on a hole, like being a co cobalt and bloody and, uh,

Madyx: But yeah, you guys have this barren rock and then they're just weal. Get the hell.

Rauriki: yeah, man. Oh, um, and see, that's, that's the, we went over to Sweden and that's the challenge they're actually having right now is that they've established the samami, even indigenous people over there established All of their, I think, culture practices around the reindeer migration paths. And so where the reindeer and do all the things they do, um, like huge deposits of cobalt and, and all the um, rear, rear earth metals used in electronics.

So that's very much there's been played out right now.

Madyx: Yeah, that's, you know, what happened with a trail of tears. It's like they kept the, the Native American group, um, you know, the settlers came and they're like [00:36:00] fought and they're like, okay, get off here 'cause we wanna settle here. And they kept getting moved and they're like, oh, we found oil.

Can you, we have to move here again. Oh. You know, and they just kept, you know, it's called the Trail of Tears. 'cause they went all the way from the northeast all the way. You know, I think down to Oklahoma area o over a long period, you know, and it kept being like, oh, actually we, we thought there was nothing that we valued here where we've stuck here, we, the US government or you know, the early settlers, and they kept, oh, actually we do one sign there, we you gotta move again.

You know? But yeah. So that's certainly a risk of this new utopian indigenous

Rauriki: and that's, and that's why the, the non-physical infrastructure is so important because that needs to inform

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: what is done in a new, if we've got a blank slate, what, what are the principles that govern and what should be done there? Can't

Madyx: I,

Rauriki: exploit everything and then chuck cheap labor,

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: put some slums there and now all the people who are the workforce can live far away from the city center.

[00:37:00] And then you get our district 13 from, uh, the Hunger

Madyx: Yeah. True. And that's, so the amazing conference.

Um, but one of the things that I observed, which might be there, right? These people have 10 minutes to share a crazy vision, right? So I'm sure it could very well be there, but they didn't get an opportunity to dig into their value set, right? So rather than me say it's not there, I'll just say they didn't have a chance to share.

Like these are the fundamental ways, the unseen, invisible technologies, the systems and and culture that will ground, um, what we're doing in making it better. They all had a huge dissatisfaction of how things were. Now wananga create a better future. That's super cool. Like that's great. Um, but I think the amazing thing about animus at the core of it is that, as we talked about a lot, it's.

Mandates a relational view of, of existence and the cosmos and your life within it, and that that's non-negotiable. [00:38:00] If that's your, if that's how you live, that's your experience of existence. It's always gonna be relational. And I think that it, not that people can't abuse and, and go away from things, but if you are actually living that way, I think it precludes a lot of the exploitative behavior.

You don't have to create, what I'm trying to say is you don't have to create grandiose legal structures to stop it. Right? It's at its core, at its core, it's going to orient how you behave in, in a relational way to other humans, to pieces of the land, to animals, trees, rivers, mountains, other things.

Everything is a relational exercise.

Rauriki: yeah. And

Madyx: so, as you said, I think that's what I really like about our endeavor is I feel like it just provides . A much more elegant and simple way than lots of laws or other

Rauriki: it puts a cap on what's, um, I think Ja uh, the [00:39:00] Degrowth book by Jason Hickle. He puts, um, a really, uh, he tells the story of industrialization and pagan societies and, um, industrial revolution on all that. But one of the things that, uh, bourgeoisie to their workforce was, um, yeah, they tried to remove the divinity of the t of the t of the environment and, um, cut down all of the holidays that celebrate all the different deities so that, um, so that you could allow these exploitative acts on, on you previously worshiped and all, and all the ecosystems that you cared for. Um, yeah. So that's, yeah, that is, that's I suppose. The counter of an animist worldview was a capitalist worldview. And I think we, or materialist worldview,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: devoids materialism, devoids. Um, so it voids [00:40:00] the, the environment of its divinity, whereas

Madyx: Yep.

Rauriki: is, sees it as re your relation, your relative. Um, so yeah, that's, that's another cool thing that just, it

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: murky when you, um, 'cause they got legal personhood as well, you know,

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: legal personhood

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: to, um, you know, to or to nu or, um, PAMA Haven, Bolivia.

But it gets murky, you know, it's,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: gets tricky when you go into the middle. So yeah, that's another, that's a whole nother yarn I suppose.

Madyx: Yeah, it's cool. It's like, it's, it's cool to see those things happen, but they're still being forced to use this shitty legal system, right, to justify

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: as a standing for people in an appropriate way because they have a relationship with the thing and they just recognize, um, they have a direct experience so that they have a knowing of, you know, [00:41:00] the thing and then that leads to the appropriate action.

But we don't, but they're forced to make a legal status that enforces behavior rather than, you know, have experience of this thing as somehow being part of a living cosmos and having some, um, form of. Animating force to it and some divinity, some sacredness, some form of its own form of awareness, maybe its own form of intelligence, you know, and then that is immediately going to inform how you interact with it.

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: Um, so yeah, it's, it's like amazing to see people battling to protect these sacred places, but it's

Rauriki: Yes.

Madyx: ha having to go through the legal system of game a right is

Rauriki: well, yeah. And as soon as it's in the legal system, whoever has the most money wins, whoever can find the loopholes win. And that's gonna be a big multinational, big global corporation. [00:42:00] Um,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: yeah, man.

Madyx: So, yeah, just, it's just something for us to think about is the physical p piece we've been, and you, you know, you're totally right that the non-physical, the foundation, the, the system, the, the culture, the practices, the outlook. The social tech stack is foundational. And that needs to have, it's not gonna be complete, but it has to have a certain, it has to have enough solidity that people can go, yeah, I do want to be a part of that.

I align with that. And then we can start experimenting on the Foundry point, point, okay, well how does that look in physical meat space? How do we take steps towards developing that? And these are all gonna be hyper iterative processes, right? Like,

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: but it'll be, it's, I think it's just, I think it's healthy for us to bring that back into, maybe it's not so far down the road that we do sign physical and then we can keep iterating in cycles, you know?[00:43:00]

Rauriki: I love that. No, that's wicked. That's so cool.

It

Madyx: When.

Rauriki: to be a hundred years until we we put

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: place. We do wanna have a a hundred year, 1000 year in place.

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: 'cause some of the things that are coming out of the journey and, and, uh, the, the images are, are wicked and they might be far, far future,

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: um, we don't have to wait until then to do anything physical.

Madyx: I guess

Rauriki: wonder what a, a wonder what

Madyx: I,

Rauriki: desktop sized Foundry

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: minimum level product would be. I wonder, I wonder how small, I'm just thinking, I wonder how small you could go.

Madyx: Like just an actual Yeah. A dec. Yeah. Like oh one. Well, it reminds me of a book called a Pattern Language that's about like physical design, and it breaks down, like it starts in the whole regional scale, and it has. The goal is to develop a language, a, a pattern language that's super modular, but it goes down to literally like [00:44:00] a nook in your house up to, you know, huge landscape master planning scale.

Rauriki: Ah,

Madyx: But that's sort of, yeah, what made me think of it's like, well, what, how does, if I'm a con Foundry manifest in just I, all I have is one little corner of a room

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: and what does

Rauriki: yeah, my, my capital that I have at the moment to work with uh, the small house or the small room. Um, and it's, probably something there on the fractals, eh, 'cause the fractals, big or small, have that similar, similar pattern

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: can scale up. Um,

Madyx: And it, it also made me think at a certain stage, the non-physical needs to be informed by physic. They need to keep informing each other. Right. So.

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: Developing the non-physical, but then the non-physical is relevant in a relationship with the physical. And the physical is relevant in relationship with a [00:45:00] non-physical.

So we need at a certain stage to build a physical, and then that can reinforce the non-physical, which will informed the next physical. And it's like we can't,

Rauriki: And then we get into iterative cycles of

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: and feedback. I think that's probably even more cause for establishing a physical, tangible aspect of the Copa. So we can have that iterative cycle and that might be one thing we, we think about. I do love, I do love the conversation around scale, that pattern language that's wicked.

Madyx: Yeah. It's an incredible book.

Rauriki: 'cause my scale in my mind at the moment, it's like, oh, maybe it'd be Yeah, like a building, a shared working space or

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: a community, uh, a cult, a cul-de-sac Start with a t now

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: Like something like that is, is wicked. But what could it be smaller? Um, could it be, yeah. Anyway, I don't know right now.

But that's a,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: cool thing to peg another

Madyx: I think

Rauriki: Quest.

Madyx: another, [00:46:00] you know, for sure cyclists everywhere and I think one of the, maybe the thing that will help, they so endeavor that so many humans before have tried of, of make this parallel thing possible is now, I think because of non-physical social tech and physical IT tech, you don't have to give up membership of a certain thing.

We can just keep adding memberships to new things. And I think that's what made it like the cults, like, give up all your other belongings and just join this thing. Or my identity is to this culture, this religion. But now we don't say, you don't, don't give, this is, what is it called? Like when you have citizenship to multiple places, we're just inviting people to add a richness.

It's like you don't have to stop being Maori or stop lying to this Hapu or this marae or Kiwi or whatever you are. Like just add this parallel membership that enrichens your life and it doesn't. [00:47:00] That's why it's not a cult. It doesn't ask you in any way to give anything else up. It just inviting you to join

Rauriki: Oh,

Madyx: and participate in this new thing.

Rauriki: beautiful distinction there. That makes it extremely clear. 'cause yeah, can't leave, like leaving a cult is a thing and

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: it is, uh, frowned upon by people, members of the cult. But man,

Madyx: true.

Rauriki: so you don't have freedom of movement, freedom of movement between, um, you know, where we wanna spend your time or however

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: do it. um, yeah, no, that's very much what this is not, so

Madyx: And they make you give up all other memberships.

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: to join them. You know? And so I think that's what's gonna, that's what is, it's not hypothetical. That's what is enabling all these other people, is that you don't have to stop being whatever, uh, a Spanish citizen. You don't have to stop being a dead or whatever other groups you belong to, identities.

They're just like, Hey, also joining this, also add this crazy blockchain passport card [00:48:00] thingy to your, to the,

Rauriki: Existing rollout of how you choose to live your

Madyx: to the rest of your life. Add this in. And at one stage, at this stage, it's just, you're an online, you, you join in via online. And that's what's cool 'cause a barrier to entry. Now we've had, because of that, now from here with minimal resources, I can join in and that joining gives them access to capital in game may.

That's what's so crazy. And that's what this guy that laid out praxis, it was, it made me, it was a bit mercantile, but at the same time it was very pragmatic. , you know what I mean? Where he's just like, all of that is proof of demand. And then I got capital for that. And then that capital allowed me to negotiate with countries on the scale of countries saying, look, we're talking about moving in $10 billion of tech businesses.

That said, if you give X concessions that will allow us to operate and innovate here, we'll move here. And now all of a sudden you have governments making offers of to [00:49:00] this product. Nothing, this online concept. And I just think it's a different playing field now. Like it's so easy to get stuck in playing by the old rules, but there's different things possible now, you know?

And whether that comes to fruition, they're saying in two years they'll have the first people moving in, in Praxis. But regardless of how that works out, it's a crazy pathway to secure capital and to start transferring it, even if it's just to an AV system. That's one of the things that's so important. We have to start transferring resources.

But this, being able to join online, you don't need resource, you don't need capital. But that act of joining and committing and signing a pledge or commitment or whatever, now we can access resource and we start to transfer a resource, you know? And I think like very intentionally, the first thing is probably healthiest to think of it as a halfway home.

It's, it's a place where we're all indoctrinated so much by game A, [00:50:00] let's create a first place, the stepping stone, where we all know it's a stepping stone. We don't pretend it's utopia, but it's a chance to try to un indoctrinate ourselves for that. And then we can make a plan for the next step. You know?

And that's maybe the concept, you know, it's not something utopia's selling this, like we're in a prison. So a halfway home in the traditional context is a place you come out of prison to readjust to society, right? And so I feel like that's how I, in one way I think about it, it's like we're all indoctrinated by game A.

We need a place that's to get out and to try and recalibrate to, you know, a better way of living

or to this

Rauriki: bloody inspirational, bro. I was just

Madyx: it, but practical. That's what we have to have is marry those, synthesize those two. Right.

Rauriki: yeah,

Madyx: And the inspirational gets the buy-in, but then the practical allows us to make it happen.

Rauriki: That's wicked. [00:51:00] I'm just drawing up things in my head like, yeah, that is so valid. Like those, um, the pictures in my head, based on what you were saying is so, such, such a good explanation going from, from where we are now and setting up a safe space to then transition out into whatever that may be.

Madyx: Yeah, I think, yeah, for some reason I just, it's like halfway home is so many plays on words that are appropriate where it's like you're ha like, this is not our home. We're in this sort of hostile environment in many ways. And, um, it's like a place where we can get partway back to where we should be. And also, it also is like acknowledging that we're all institutionalized in game a, like a prisoner's institutionalized in prison.

They don't know how to operate when they have more freedom. It's like, I, it's a really. , realistic, [00:52:00] practical way, right? To say we're gonna need this time to relearn how to operate with less rules, less laws, less prescriptive things. A lot of people are very indoctrinated with everything in their life's.

Very prescriptive. Okay, you're a member of this, you're this religion, so you do these things. But I think in these aspirational societies we're talking about, there's a lot more agency within people and freedom to some degree, right? And they might need this time to learn how to operate that way. I mean, it reminds me of a friend that just left the Mormon church and she was saying she never, there was never a time when she had to figure out anything on her own.

It was always like, this is what you do every day. This is what you don't eat. This is what you do eat. This is how you be good. Everything is just given. You just do these things, right? And she was like, now I, it's scary, but also amazing to have a chance that I need to actually explore and find my own.

meaning and path. You know,[00:53:00]

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: I feel like it's easy to think we don't have to do that. Oh, I'm not Mormon, but probably

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: there are things that I need to do, you know, in this transition,

Rauriki: and things we are already indoctrinated into that we don't have, that we don't even know that we are, aren't even aware of. that, maybe what from halfway home to society Game B society make us feel apprehensive or, or anxious about those, those preexisting things that we've gotta shake off. Like, um, yeah, mad man. I just wananga, I just wananga, um, round up some like-minded people right now and say, Hey, we set up a set up a place here.

Madyx: I think. Yeah.

Rauriki: be a lot of, there will be, um, there has to be that, that social infrastructure, that non-physical discussion and non-physical infrastructure to have discussions and have that indoctrinating, uh,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: that the, the word in my mind is [00:54:00] decolonization, but

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: de recapitalizing or dematerializing, I don't know what the word is, but it's de game. Aying

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: to accept the game. B potentials, animus. What does, what does that look like on a base layer of animism? And then how can we What does that look like? And then being extremely pragmatic about it, like these network state, peeps were say, wow, that's cool.

Madyx: I like what you said. I like what you said. Or it's really empathetic what you said around people will bribe a lot of anxiety, and this halfway home is a chance to like take a pause on the journey together and to support each other,

Rauriki: Mm,

Madyx: you know? And maybe that helps. You don't have that step. It's a big jump.

But if you do have that step, maybe it's enough to say, Hey, it, there will be things that are different. Those things are scary, but if we can support each other here and it's an intentional step, you know? I don't know. I liked how you framed [00:55:00] it. It was very empathetic and human centric approach. Right? Like just acknowledging people are gonna have a lot of apprehension and anxiety about

Rauriki: I missed these, I missed these yarns. Right?

Madyx: We'll look at the list of stuff. We've got plenty. We talk about the black holes as a mitochondria of of

Rauriki: when you, when I had mitochondria and black holes in one message, I was going, okay, that's a whole, that's a whole thing

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: into. Um, but,

Madyx: Get your, I've gotta get your response next time on that.

Rauriki: that's, that should be the start of the next, the next, uh, it's the, the next socio crafting the future,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: uh, episode. But, um, I like this one. This was cool. This was a more of exploratory than prescriptive. 'cause I feel like we had to lay out a few things,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: out the boundaries of what we are gonna yarn about it.

Now. We just, I feel like we're coloring it all in.

Madyx: and we're coming back to it's eco PA [00:56:00] was always a component, right? It's not that the physical manifestation wasn't a part of the vision from the beginning, but it's just that we dig, you dig deep in different places, and we've been in the eCOA probably, and now we're talking about actually know way moving from the knowledge creation and, and continuity of knowledge into the eCOA because, well, in that plan, the, the network is the thing that enables the physical.

Rauriki: Yes.

Madyx: So maybe it's not the transition from eco, um, law to eco Pub. It's the transition from the knowledge and the non-physical infrastructure building to the network infrastructure, which unlocks us to build physical plays to test.

Rauriki: that I, um, I knew there was significance of the eco element, the people element, but seeing what they were able to achieve or hearing from you

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: to achieve with the network state just really reinforces how important it is, um, [00:57:00] critical. Especially if you are, if you're coming off no capital and you're just relying on the capital of the network,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: the equity of your followership

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: their ability your ability to leverage that and then, and then negotiate with governments like

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: Damn. Let's look.

Madyx: It's really crazy. Yeah. Well, we'll dig into that more. We're thinking about how we proceed. We have certain steps that we need, the basic things we have to do, but in the grander scheme, it might be thinking about what we need to finish in eco, um, wa what are the minimum lovable products of the social stack that we're

uh, offering, right? Like this is, this is what we're thinking. It's, it's not perfect, but this is a stack, this is a foundation to a different thing that we're thinking. The halfway home, that's Solar Pump Game Bay here, who's down And then build the, the network of people that are up for that. And I, it doesn't need to be 10 million people, [00:58:00] right?

That's a cool thing. Depending on the scale, it's not a vast number of people. But yeah, that's, it's a good flow it all. And then you get the cycle of from HA to pa and then power will inform law. And we will, we'll create different social things. Social, social, invisible infrastructure will be possible when we're doing it from a physical place together.

Right? There'll be different wisdom that we can gain and different things that'll be possible

Rauriki: Yeah,

Madyx: aren't possible online. Keep

Rauriki: keep looping, keep iterating. Um,

Madyx: Alright bro.

Rauriki: oh, what a great way to kick off. Kick off the year first one,

Madyx: True good sociocrafting the future for 2024, episode three.