EP 4 Whanake Foundry's Kardashev Scale

EP 4 Whanake Foundry's Kardashev Scale
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[00:00:00]

Madyx: I'll hit record and I'll say, welcome to Sociocrafting the Future. Yeah.

Rauriki: We need some intro music.

Madyx: Yeah. Music, no listeners. So that's alright. We're getting some kinks out, so that's fine. But, uh, I guess the thing is, if, if you ever do get listeners they can always come back. So,

Rauriki: yeah. Hard.

Madyx: um,

Rauriki: all, where it all began. I was, I

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: I was talking to um, a mate of mine and was saying, oh man, I was discussing all of our kind of ideas and concepts and our thinking, man, you should do a podcast. I was like, well, you know what we are. So here it is. Here's the

Madyx: Nice. Um, yeah. Sociocrafting the Future Podcast, episode four, I think.

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: And, um. We were going to, we [00:01:00] said last time, we're gonna start off with, um, just a, a random observation about black holes in mitochondria. 'cause we thought it could spark some interesting stuff, but I was, I was rea I was reading an article, a research paper about pulsars and quasars as it had been a while since I read about them.

And there's like, you know, that field I think has been advancing quite a bit as we get more powerful telescopes. But how did it, uh, there was a, they were just talking about certain types of black, oh, there was just one throw, well not throwaway, but there was just a random line in, in the article or the paper that said they're the most efficient things we know of at converting energy, a matter to energy.

Um, and as the matter, yeah, as the matter sucked in towards a black hole. During that process, like a lot of energy's released, like any, anything [00:02:00] that crosses event horizon doesn't ever leave. It always goes towards the black hole. But, uh, on the journey towards that, for the particles along the way, as they're exposed to the extreme environment, they, a lot of energy's released.

And then they said something that, like certain ones, I think it's like fast rotating black holes, they can convert about 40% of that matter into energy. And um, yeah, so I just thought that was super interesting and it made me think about power sources. And then there was some theoretical physicists that had like hypothetical ways to basically make a power plant out of black holes and like harvest the energy.

And, you know, I was just thinking about our, you know, potential aspirational civilization and different ways to. Function in the universe, you know? Um, and then to finish this story, I, [00:03:00] I, I don't know what made me think about it, but I guess I, um, when you look at a diagram like the old school diagrams of, um, of an atom and you see the different, you see the nucleus and you see the electron orbits, and at least how they lay it out looks identical to a, uh, a map of a star system with a central star and a bunch of planetary orbits.

And, you know, so I just started connecting a few things. Now it's like, okay, well, so I was saying, okay, so a black hole, it seems to be functioning at providing energy out into the galaxy, right? Like it's taking some matter and then it's converting some of that into energy and distributing that out into the galaxy.

And it would made me think of, I think. I think when you're a little kid and you hear about a black hole, it's a little bit terrifying. It like, seems like some sort of destructive evil thing. But then I thought, oh, like that's really, that's quite a, it's [00:04:00] providing this service to the, to the, um, galaxy. They, you know, that it's, they seem to be finding a, a, a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxy.

So I was like, you know, starting to look at it is like, okay, it's a function, it's providing a function. It's like an organelle or the nucleus of a cell and maybe it's function as like a mitochondria, which is to provide energy to the system. And then I looked up cellular metabolism and I was like, let me just check this.

How, what's the conversion rate of like cellular respiration? And it con converts about 40% of its fuel source into energy for the system. I was like, well that's pretty weird.

Rauriki: Hmm. That must be like a, no, I don't wanna say like a universal limit, but that's a cool observation, bro. Um,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: my mind, I had a, I I've been thinking about, talking about setting up a compost in our town and, you know, to a compost as like a hub that takes resources, organic [00:05:00] matter, and then reconvert into the as soil.

That use could be used to enrich, um, you know, the, the town hall, the, the local environment. And I was like, man, uh uh, black holes is like you compost piles in the center of, uh, galaxies that are just, um, taking matter and just putting it back out as energy to be reused. That's what I had in my head.

Madyx: you, yeah, the compost heap slash mitochondria of the galaxy.

Rauriki: I'm just thinking that's either like a universal, these universal laws or clues to universal laws that are, that are just present out there. The micro and macro, ultimate ends of those spectrums. or the, um, person writing black holes was looking at the person writing mitochondria, and they're just like, yeah. Or it's the same thing. But that's, that's a cool observation. Cool. Coincidences at the, the biggest and smallest scales.

Yeah, the, these, uh. [00:06:00] There sound like there's some patterns between the macro and the micro scale that are kind of emerging and I, I remember you always talking about, uh, what, uh, pattern, language, what was the book you mentioned last time, like around the different patterns and, and fractals and the, larger scales and those patterns there being mirrored in the smallest scales of things.

Madyx: Yeah, this, as we talked about, scale and variance as like a principle of, I don't know, maybe of good observation, you know, like, or not good, but it seems to be that if you're observing a pattern, a universal pattern, then you should be able to find an expression of it at all scales. And then I think we also mentioned that, you know, there's this like I.

I don't know, ancient western, esoteric maxim, or saying that as above, so below, which is [00:07:00] basically the, that's expressing scale and variance basically, that the patterns you observe on the large scale you can observe on the small scale and vice versa. So if you have access to a certain scale, you can infer a lot of information about the other ones, even if you might not be able to directly observe them, is one, I guess, takeaway or there's many takeaways I guess.

But yeah, it was just an interesting to see those sort of markers between a cell and a galaxy.

Rauriki: It's just, I'm thinking now and variance being a, a feature of our natural world. And then it makes me think of, okay, what, what type of civilizations? What are our future civilizations, civilizations gonna look like and how, How will scale and variance be present there? And then it made me think of, well, economies of scale is scale variance.

And when you do something in [00:08:00] a big enough scale, things cost less. Um, and so it makes me think, does that align with the natural, the potential natural law of scale and variance? then I jump to, well, economies of scale, president and present and materialists capitalists, economies. And then, um, in my mind when there are economies of scale in place, in the environment and ecosystem is missing out because it's, um, sticking to that, that law or there's, there's something that you've, that's been missed out or exploited to. To ver or to veer on the side of scale variants. Now I'm just, just interesting.

Madyx: Yeah, that's a really good observation. It's not behaving in a similar fashion. It's behaving in like the opposite of that, where it [00:09:00] doesn't really function that well at a micro scale.

Rauriki: I like, I like that. Oh, well. And I think, I

Madyx: You.

Rauriki: writing down scale and variance when we were talking in our earlier discussions around, what does this future society or the state of societies need look like? And I think that's probably one thing we can, we should come back to because, um, if a household, if a community, if a city, if a country all operate on the same principles, what is, what is the scale and variant set that allows all those things to function, um, but are similar across all levels

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: um, yeah. Because the things like collect collectivizing and, and hyper collaboration, hyper transparency seem like things that happen or can happen at a small scale. But I don't know if they are present in a big scale. So there's probably, um, what, what, what needs to happen so that they can, they can be present as the scale of something goes up.[00:10:00]

'cause I, I can think of a community garden I can think of, can think of when you talked about that, that place in China where there's food is just free and they give it up because it's all operated. But I don't know if you scale that up, what does it look like, mate? These are yarns off the back of your, um, mitochondria and black

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: discussions that are.

Madyx: I'm glad you could apply it to our mission at pH Foundry. And that is, well, it made me think of so many things around, um, how. Well, first of all, that the pattern language book, um, that I mentioned, that's really scale and variant patterns, isn't it? Because he's saying, you know, here's a pattern that could apply at your desk or a corner of your room up to a, a, a large landscape or regional scale, and that you can, you can learn and use these patterns to create.

And I was, I was thinking like elegant [00:11:00] systems. It's like a marker that the system is really elegant or well designed, maybe that it's variant and that if you don't have the elegance in the design, then it's scale variant, right? It can only function at certain scales. I think that's, at least in my mind, a good way.

It's a good tag ad. It's like, oh, that's an elegant design because it can function at any scale effectively.

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: And then you were mentioning these things and I'm thinking, yeah, that's true. And, and maybe that's what decentralized blockchain Web3 type of. Architecture can allow

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: things to be efficient at a small scale, which otherwise you would need a lot of infrastructure and overhead to do.

Like, oh, we can't do governance, we can't do, we can't, uh, have a, we can't monitor the authenticity or share data because who can, who can manage and set up all the infrastructure for just, you know, my room or this little community garden? 'cause it's not cost [00:12:00] effective. But if it is cost effective through decentralized blockchain tech, well that's, I think it's pretty easy to see how you can apply that at a big scale, like, which is the network state type of concept, right?

Mm-Hmm. And even in his book and his presentations, he just, he shows the scale from the micro to the macro and how the network state can function. So I think yeah, that's a good point.

Rauriki: Um, that's wicked. a tag, I suppose A tag or principle or something that's always keep, keep a lookout for that scale and variance. 'cause yeah, you do wanna achieve efficiencies that you can get at the large, at the large scale, but you don't want to have to. but there's so many barriers and capital barriers to overcome to, to do that. And, um, yeah, like if we can use technology, AI efficiencies or blockchain or whatever is out there to, to allow us to achieve [00:13:00] those efficiencies that are small scale, then it's wicked.

Madyx: It makes me think of the social architecture component that, um, like applying that that same type of thinking over on that side could be really useful as far as those systems. Um. And using the scale in variance as just a marker that you're on the right track or that, you know what I mean? That it's a potential

Rauriki: We're, we're, uh, operating in a, in a way that's not compatible with scale and variance. I think we've operated in a way that exploits takes from our environment, which may have been all right, with a certain population or with the, a certain system or certain size. But as we grow, you can just project that it's not gonna, it's not gonna end well.

If we carry on in these ways, it's not suitable for growing population.[00:14:00]

Madyx: No, it's definitely, it's not suitable for progressing along the car to show scale, you know, because. Those scales of civilization would, in this game, a would, they would need such huge reserves of material to exploit because they're so inefficient. Right.

Rauriki: What, what's some things we can unpack? Like you just mentioned, the kaev scale. I, I don't know if we've talked about the kaev scale or, um, or social or social scale similar to that. 'cause when we talk about kaev, it's a, it's a tech, tech civilization type scale. and

Madyx: yeah. It's basically.

Rauriki: yeah. But this, um, this podcast, socio crafting was a word because it's about Yeah. Crafting a social focus. Future, um, instead of a technocratic type And what are all the things that [00:15:00] come when you just come away from, from technology being at the core?

Um, so should we talk a

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: talk a bit of that? Or, or, or what are other, what are some other things?

Madyx: I think it's good. It's probably a good time to return to that and to explore that and share and develop our thoughts. I mean, basically we saw that we were, I don't know, somehow the Carter Chef scale came up. And like you said, that's just a, that's a way to measure the total exploitation or harvest of energy of a civilization and to like delineate a civilization based on how much energy it can harness.

Um. And then in some ways it's aspirational because I don't think many people think at those scales like it. I think that's what's cool about it to me, is that it forces you to think about scales, which we don't usually think about. I mean, when it starts to talk, I mean the first, I think one, the, the stage one on Kishev is har is harnessing the like [00:16:00] total energy of a planet, which is like, I think most people, you get 'em there pretty quick, but then you talk about harvesting the totality of your stars of this, the star in your, in your star system, you know, and you're talking about, what's the name of the hypothetical structure?

Rauriki: Dyson, I think the

Madyx: Dyson sphere. Yeah. You know, you get to those levels, it forces you to think in really different scales, which is super interesting. But um, as you were alluding to, we were like, you know, back to the game a game B problem. It's like without social wisdom, social architecture, that's founded on wisdom and, and in our view on animism.

Creating a, a scaffolding of social architecture that can guide evolution along or development along this card chef scale. It is likely just to remain how it is now, which is, I guess, and another, there's one quick point on that is, you know, we can talk about all these [00:17:00] different metrics of, and people can argue, oh, it's okay to extract.

It's not okay. But I think another interesting data point is this is not enjoyable for most people right now. If you look at rates of depression, suicide satisfaction, loneliness, like all those markers are just showing people don't enjoy existing like they are now. And I think that's a good, a good as re good of reason as any to just say like we, you know, as humans, why are we perpetuating this thing that none of us really enjoy participating in yet we are the people driving it.

So anyways, it was just a little thing that came to me around. You can argue about which, how you look at the, at the natural world, is it living, is it dead? Is it okay to do extract the X mineral or not? But I, you can't argue with the data that people are generally miserable in this type of society. Um, and I think it's always nice when you have a data point that's not really arguable.[00:18:00]

You can't really, no. People are happier now than they've ever been. So we said we need something to guide a shift to guide all the technology. Right. That would make Carter Shev 1, 2, 3, 4 si civilizations enjoyable and harmonious to exist in. Is that fair to say?

Rauriki: Yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely the, the, the challenge that we presented, uh, that we were presented with when we were looking at the kaev scale, that that set of type one civilization harnesses all the power. of their, uh, natural resources and controls everything. But then like, then what is the social structure in that society like?

Who then controls that infinite power, like infinite on that scale? Is it just within the small 1%? And then is everyone just in this dystopian world where you're just a, a number, even though there's limitless power, there'll still be telling you, uh, [00:19:00] oppression, depression, all of those stats, are they're not. Um, it would be remiss of us to say that they are linked together, where if you go up the kaev scale, you also go up the social wellbeing or these other, these other scales. So we were thinking, oh, what would, um, what would a social scale look like? And then, um, if you got a 1, 2, 3. Kish civilization where three is you control all the power of your, of the black hole with the center of your whole super galaxy or whatever. Uh, maybe we don't think of that. Maybe we just go between, um, now and maybe one where we control all the uh, yeah. Type one. So we were like, I think we were saying, well, where would we be right now? And I think you said someone said, we are 0.7 or something, even 0.73 or,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: so what would 0.74 look like? Or, you know, what, and what would on the, um, on the social scale, [00:20:00] how do, what does it look like to get from 0.73 to 0.74 to to to 0.8? What does that all

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: And then the other questions we were asking is, um, does it look like from here to there? And then what does. Day-to-day life look like. What does socializing look like? What does infrastructure look like? Where do you get food from? Where do you play? what do communities look like? And then what do they look like in different in different parts of our world, of coastal, uh, in all the way inland and mountains and desert, all these different in city, urban, urban environments. what did they look like from, from now until that future state across all of these different biomes and all of these different types of activities?

And we had three axes, then we were thinking, oh, that would be, it's kind of a cube that you could form. And that's kind of where our cube, [00:21:00] our um, what, what do we call, what do we call the cube

Madyx: The vision queue

Rauriki: Our vision cube? Yeah. That's, uh, vision Cube holding.

Madyx: or,

Rauriki: Yeah. All of those, all those states of being. And it would be so, so cool. Like, like a, to look in, look into it and be like, wow, that's the map. That's what we need to follow. There's, I can see myself here, I can see myself doing these in my own environments and and it's enjoyable. I'm looking at society. I'm not looking at advancement of technology alone, but I'm looking at my role and my place within the society that is advancing.

Madyx: and we were saying that, you know, th Well, this is what Funke and you and I are working on, but. You know, we think it's valuable for everyone to work on in their own way is, is to through written and spoken word and increasingly through generative ai, if you're not blessed to be, uh, an incredible digital or, or traditional artist, right?

If you don't have those skills, [00:22:00] what generative ai, I guess the positive side is it opens up the ability for people to translate some things they might have in their head or some visions or some imagination, and to put it in a format that's more easily shareable. Um, and I guess even chat, GBT or large language models can even support people to express, uh, imagination and visions in a written form.

So we were saying, we were saying, you know what fun is? What we're gonna do is use these tools to explore and to show describe, but also show visually instills and increasingly as technology improves in, in. Videos or animated formats, what the different steps along the way could look like, um, and help flesh out through that process what social architecture we would imagine you would need to maintain these really beautiful and exciting [00:23:00] components of that civilization.

Right? Like crafting the complimentary scale that would allow progression on a Carter ship scale to occur in a really benevolent, beautiful, enjoyable way.

Rauriki: Hmm

Madyx: Because I mean, you've got Cardi Ship who makes me think a few things. Cardish chef talking about, you know, harnessing, right? And it's like that's I guess, a non-relational way.

Well, it's a, it's a,

Rauriki: hmm.

Madyx: there is a relationship, but I don't know if it's intentional, but it becomes sort of a extraction exploitation, right? But what if you have an animus foundation? Then it's like, how do we have a relationship with these things that produce energy and have like a, an an exchange that's mutually beneficial?

Um, and that's, I think a lot richer way to conceive of

Rauriki: Versus an

Madyx: is

Rauriki: an extraction,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: based metric. Could you have a relational [00:24:00] based metric between people with are now in our and where we live? And, and the, the animus wasn't an animus foundation. That's cool. That's like, um, that's a good way

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: it. Um.

Madyx: So you're like, how do you, uh, so in that sense, a type one civilization on our scale has a conscious relationship with all components of the earth of the planet, and then a.

Rauriki: Working, yeah.

Madyx: Has a conscious and active relationship with every part of the,

Rauriki: Of

Madyx: uh, solar system.

Rauriki: system.

Madyx: And type three, you have an active and conscious relationship between your civilization and all parts of the galaxy. Oh, things in the galaxy. Oh, that's,

Rauriki: that be so

Madyx: that's,

Rauriki: a part of? That's so

Madyx: oh man. And, you know, compatible [00:25:00] with much more, compatible with an indigenous way of life.

Rauriki: I, um, just before you go, I, I

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: in our mind we had a vision queue, which

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: three AEs were. It was time from now until when, whenever the time is we are gonna achieve that state of maybe a type one civilization. they'll say there was time, then there was the ecosystems, the different biomes,

Madyx: Oh yeah.

Rauriki: and then the other, the third axis was activities.

Like what, what, what would you be doing? But I think there's one more which takes it to the test effect, which is what around scale and variance. And I think that it has to be, um, if we have a relationship with every, everything, what does that look like at a global scale and what does that look like at a, at a household scale?

So those, I think that's the one other dimension. just going off

Madyx: Hmm

Rauriki: of our conversation that we may need to capture within our vision cube or vision. Tesseract because the [00:26:00] cube could be appropriate for a large scale, but then it might not reflect day-to-day life and a in a just a little village versus, um, the infrastructure that will need to, to talk with the rest of the solar system.

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: yeah, I think

Madyx: It's also, go ahead bro. Sorry.

Rauriki: just had to say that I just had to chuck the scale of Aaron's part into the vision cube, so it was there. Um, but I love the way you've articulated a type one civilization on the social scale. Um, relational scale that's wicked.

Madyx: Yeah, that's such a exciting way to look at it, to imagine measuring relational strength and connectivity between society and the other components of this larger living system on the planet. You know, and it also is really exciting because it gives you a little bit of direction on what sort of techniques, technologies, [00:27:00] social systems, you might need to increase relational connectivity.

Right? Because in some senses, well many senses, some information technology has increased that. Um, some of the general infrastructure of the internet. Some the way we're connecting and we're going to podcast is increasing connectivity between components of this, you know, planetary system. But it also, I think, can give you areas worth exploring or give us around what other things could in increase relational connectivity, you know, what other techniques, modes of being you.

Fascinating.

Rauriki: I think our last conversation was. The Animist Foundation and the Materialist Foundation, and now it's kind of getting to, uh, within a materialist foundation, there are extraction based and within our [00:28:00] animist foundation or society, there are relational based actions.

These may not be the right words, but there's general just,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: then, so within the materialist scale, the kaev is how much energy you can extract. within the animist it's around how, how or how, what, what's the word, how relation, or how well you can achieve relationship or how strong. Because

Madyx: it's

Rauriki: Extraction seems like a finite thing. Hey, like extraction thing is fully gone. But I think feel like relational, you can have a, have almost a limitless,

Madyx: infinite. Yeah,

Rauriki: strength of, of relation. Um,

Madyx: true. I guess you, yeah, you, you, you would like to be able to measure the quality and the amount of relational connections between

Rauriki: yeah. And so then you're getting to, on the relational side, it's a, it's about the quality of the [00:29:00] relationship. On the extraction side, it's about the quantity of

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: extracted. Um,

Madyx: It's like a utilization metric, right? How much of Star's energy are we utilizing? And obviously that's within that frame of utilizing is, is mostly to make more gadgets and economic activity.

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: So even that metric's pretty narrow, right? Because you could utilize, well, we're utilizing half of it to actually, like, I.

Create a cosmic beacon of, I don't know, that lets us all telepathically link up and, and expand our imaginary potential million. You could apply it to other things, but I think in that sense, in the Carter Chef scale, it's mostly applied to quote, productive use,

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: AKA, making money off, making stuff.

Rauriki: Like the cool, the cool thing about thinking about it in this way is usually, if you [00:30:00] think on this anime society, you think at a village level, you think at a immediate, immediate environment in my relation. And then so default, you don't think interplanetary travel and, and growing beyond your solar system.

But I think this way in terms of the quality of your relationship between all things on your, on the planet, your local ecosystem to this global ecosystem, how, how strong our connections are, relational connections are. It can then extend, like, then it into this narrative, it extends beyond just our plan.

When you're thinking of civilization growth on the kaship scale, then

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: it does encourage expansion, but not expansion for, um, like not imperialist expansion, not extraction, lead expansion, but relational.

Madyx: I love that. Yeah. Then you're like, because in my head as we've been talking, I keep thinking about how dif different base [00:31:00] layers of your society affect the why that your society has. You know? 'cause I always write to why we do any of this. Why, like, why, why do you just infinitely want to extract more energy and make more things?

There's not, there's not a clear why given, right? It's just like, but what you said is so cool. Like, why do we, why are we exp like, why do we want to get to this next star, next L We wanna connect and build a relationship with all the stuff there. It's more potential connections into this growing community, family.

You know? It's like, that's a, that's a really beautiful desire I think. Like, who knows what's there to connect with and what incredible richness it could add to this connectivity and to this community. Right?

Rauriki: mm

Madyx: So it's like, oh man, that's such a, I think, a positive drive for exploration.

Rauriki: Ah,

Madyx: I

Rauriki: is like, yeah. [00:32:00] Well,

Madyx: and I,

Rauriki: that is though, but it's like, it's, it's, it's actually, yeah, we just, this is what it's about. It's exploring socio, it's crafting it as we kind of explore. These are like live explorations of what we, what we're thinking, what's potentially, what's possible.

Madyx: I mean, we are figuring stuff out as we go, you know, and sharing that process. So it's like, oh, that's amazing. It's like, yeah, we sort of just encountered this thought for the first time, exploration is a really powerful thing that can unite a society or a group of people and that there's a lot of historical links to it, which aren't necessarily positive.

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: know, even at just a mild level. It was often, I think there was genuine explorers that genuinely just loved finding the unknown.

I think that's pretty okay. There's a lot of exploitation, displacement, trauma, genocide associated with it as byproducts because of what was at the base of those explorer civilizations. Right. [00:33:00] But I think there most people recognize there is something really beautiful about this, that just the raw concept of exploration removed from the historical damage.

And most of our different cultures have some form of exploration, you know, in their social architecture. And I think what's beautiful about what you laid out is it's a way to. Have this shared aspiration of our civilization around exploration and connect it to a baseline, a base foundation, which will help influence it to be a positive process.

So you can have this thing, which is a nice binding, uniting component, and you can have something that helps a wisdom, a worldview that helps guide it to be non-destructive, but to actually increase novelty, increase coherence of the system,,[00:34:00] to have an anti entropy effect where you're actually going out.

We're connecting things.

Rauriki: It makes me think about like, uh, like the growth of a, I always love thinking about forests because we live next to forests. It's, um, the growth of a forest versus the, you know, expansion of a monoculture crop, whereas forests grow, um, and there's synergies within all the different, the diverse species that live there and they all have the synergies and they build resilience. it's kind of, it's kind of similar to that, the kind of expansion and incorporation. But then I was thinking of where does a forest stop? You know, when does the forest know actually, no, this isn't my space. This is a whole nother ecosystem. And um, like this might be a, a wetland. here, and it's not gonna have forest and in wetland, they, they kind of have boundaries and they understand, no, we're not gonna [00:35:00] fully subsume you into ours. We're gonna let you exist here. We're gonna coexist, we're gonna have a relational aspect. But then they do have a relation in ship, in, in terms of maybe the water cycle that links them together or different when you take it a, at a, at a macro lens. And so I'm thinking how do we, do we have relational, um, how do we create relationships beyond our planet, even just beyond our country

Madyx: Mm-Hmm

Rauriki: that, um, we can respect each other's ways of being and enhance each other's

Madyx: mm-Hmm.

Rauriki: ways of being, but without saying, we all one, you know, we are all like, we're all a forest.

Whereas if you look in the forest, it's all, everything's unique and different. But then a forest can be different to, to a wetland, can be different to, um, you know, coastal environment. Yes. I'm just thinking. Those are some of the thoughts of, um, maybe there's a scale and scale and variance example as well.

You know, [00:36:00] there's richness and, and diversity at all scales, but they all are relational, so yeah. I'm just thinking just another,

Madyx: No man, it's good. I I want you to keep going on that thread. It is scaling variance and teachers are, are, forest are amazing teachers and I think areas for us to learn for from, and, you know, the tree as a unit is very scale and variant to the forest. 'cause they're very similar in many ways, right? These rich ecosystems that are symbiotic between a lot of different.

Sub components. So they're already, even within the forest is a great example of, of sort of scaling variants. And a tree itself is a big ecosystem that has harmonious relationships between a lot of things that creates air from, or creates oxygen from carbon, creates sugar from light, you know, provides habitat, filters, water, uh, filters, sound, you know, does all these incredible things.

Um, and then a [00:37:00] forest is like that on a larger scale. But I love what you said. I think it, I'd love to hear you talk more about this. I think it's a great practical component to our social architecture, which is you're part of a thing. The sub-components, the members of forest are part of a thing. They function as individual sovereign things that can make their own choices and have their own lives, but they also part of a functional whole.

That's, I think, the place to learn from. For how we can craft social architecture. Right. Do you have any more thoughts on

Rauriki: no, I think

Madyx: these

Rauriki: that's articulated really well, like I think, and as you are a part of that functional hole, but then there are other functional holes that you are also a, a network of. And so

Madyx: in relationship to, right.

Rauriki: to, so just as you are a sub component of a larger hole, the hole that you are a part of is a sub-component of something else. And they all together and, and work [00:38:00] together in certain ways and rely on each other in certain ways. And I think that that fractal shape there, that can keep being applied at larger scales. And so there exists a relational scale and variance potentially. Um,

Madyx: It's a way for us to learn how to apply it at a larger scale, right? Is that what That's what I'm saying. Like we, and. So we can see, we could look at a tree and then we could explain it. You either get it or we could explain very quickly how these relationships and there's parts and a whole a forest, an ecosystem, and even a planet.

Well, what this gives us as a guide to is like how you can conceive of that beyond a planet, which I think is where for most of us, we haven't invested a lot of time in thinking how do you do this beyond a planet.

Rauriki: Yeah, I, I, I come back to the smaller scale too 'cause it makes me think of, we had just recently the big, Big Hui, the Big Hu Maori. And it was the first [00:39:00] time, one of the first few times, wouldn't say the first time, but one of the few times that Te traditionally have

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: come down, uh, to Waikato and they had a strong presence and they were United wananga let everyone know we here. And then it was also one of the first times, well, well, you know, while I've been around that us in Waikato, within our haka, we, we. We had, and we were, you know, we never our side. and so my, my my example is like all of these different, they're all different ra within the forest and, um, they're all unique in their own ways, but they all potentially can work together as, as a large forest. Um, then when you, the other thing is if you are [00:40:00] to work with the forest, if you are something else, like I'm thinking if you are the crown and you

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: of you are the same, that's, that's, you know, and then so, or you, you try and group that for us into iwi structures when they were traditionally hapu structures.

You have iwi structures come up. Then, um. Then there's, that's not a relational like between your whole and another whole, that's not a good relationship.

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: so yeah, I'm just thinking just as you had au marai hapu and they're all working as part of Tei Maori or working towards becoming this whole unit, how you engage with another whole unit that the other has to, you have to work symbiotically it has to be kind of a back and forth, like a, like a ity type thing.

Um, um, but yeah, 'cause they can be compatible, but they have to, I think one whole system has to understand the other system for them to work together. And I think if we were [00:41:00] to develop as a species on our planet encounter and try to have planetary engagements with another whatever, we'd have to have a fuller understanding of that and not just impose our understanding of how we are on that anyway.

Madyx: That's,

Rauriki: more. Yeah.

Madyx: that's so interesting because. I mean, there's a lot of wisdom in what you said, but that made me think of that, you know, they're coming in as this large, beyond a nation, right? Like a global, uh, empire. And then there's systems here of social order that, you know,

Rauriki: they may

Madyx: you know, oh, ma Marai in there as well, and they didn't really meet them on those layers, right?

Rauriki: I, I'm just keen to hear your thoughts around,

Madyx: Hmm,

Rauriki: you think that's an incompati, like incompatibility of scale, or is that maybe an incompatibility of [00:42:00] the foundational Maybe that's that, eh, maybe if you are a forest based on an animus stack and then there's another forest based on a material stick, how do you have a relationship?

And then how do you also navigate the, the qua? How do you achieve a quality relationship between those two worlds?

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: you have a

Madyx: I think,

Rauriki: No, you

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: But yeah, I think that's a challenge too, is when,

Madyx: I,

Rauriki: um, when you are interfaced with like a forest and a city.

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: What happens,

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: you know? See?

Madyx: no, I mean, that is a very practical question, and that's what a lot of people have been struggling with, right. I think ultimately, in my mind, I can't conceive of a healthy, long-term outcome. It's more like, how can we survive this encounter long enough to like. [00:43:00] Try to enlighten this materialist thing up so it doesn't like destroy us, or how do we leave?

Or at least in my limp, I feel like maybe there's some way to conceive of a, but I can't think of a long-term way to have a relat, a healthy relationship between an animus stack founded society and a materials. Because as we've said so many times, like there's a lot of things which there's a why for an animus stack.

There's just no why for an A materials. So you're like, Hey, don't do this. They're like, why? And you're like, well, because, and they're like, well, that in our system, that's not a, because

Rauriki: Mm

Madyx: not a thing. It's not another entity. It doesn't have experience. So why does it matter what I do to it?

Rauriki: mm

Madyx: And it's like, I don't, I can't, it would be a supremely elegant system that could engineer a, a harmonious thing between those two.

That's beyond my capability, you know?[00:44:00]

Rauriki: And I think in my mind, may not be even, but in my mind I visualize an stack society as a, as a forest, uh, and all the synergies. And I, and I imagine a materialist stack as like a, as a high tech city in the middle. I'm like, how would they meet? And then I think solar punk imagery is probably trying to merge those two.

And that's, that is, that is the challenge. That's an aspirational challenge to try and merge those two, because there will always be the game. A, sorry, the game A, the game B. The interface and the transition, and maybe solar punk societies are transitional societies that may sit somewhere along our, on our social scale of civiliz, advancement of civilization. Um, and that's maybe all we can, we can conceive at the moment is, is, is that, 'cause that's our wildest, but that isn't really, um, that's maybe not if [00:45:00] there's maybe not true relationship between all things but a compromise and at the interface.

Madyx: This is like a halfway, a transition Halfway,

Rauriki: a, it's like a transitional point, which,

Madyx: because I think, go ahead, bro.

Rauriki: no.

That, that's all, that's all.

Madyx: I think when you go deep, deep into it, and we touched on this a little bit around from an animus view, how much difference is there between the technological infrastructure that humans create and the nests of a bird, a tree, a river, right?

Like it's a, from my understanding of philosophy and history. The division between quote, natural and quote unnatural is, is a very monotheistic Abrahamic distinction. It's, and I don't think that's inherently present in an animistic [00:46:00] outlook, right? Like there's not, and so then to me it becomes around the quality, it becomes around the attributes of the thing.

Not a predetermined artificial category. Oh, humans created it. That's garbage. Oh, nature created it. That's good. You know, I've been, I think it becomes more about, is this a beautiful system? Does this, um, enrich the, the, the cosmos? Does this provide, not provide, it's about the attributes of the thing that you can examine rather than a, than a category.

It's like, is this a beautiful, elegant system? Does this share, does this propagate entropy? Does it. Increased connectivity, you know, and, and that's how we look at a thing. And so you can look at a technology or a way, a type of land cover and you could apply those same things and then you're judging it based on these attributes rather than it [00:47:00] belongs to X category or group, therefore it has x just immutable attributes.

But yeah, that's what I was thinking about when, when you were

Rauriki: Yeah.

Madyx: the soul punk, you know, it's like rather than judge it, does it come from this or that? It's like, what are the characteristics or attributes that it brings to the world?

Rauriki: pretty cool. Like the attributes and what it brings. Because when you get to that, um, natural or unnatural or, or things that occurred from natural world or human world, human and non-human, then you introduce a scale and then you introducing like a, um, like, you know, straight, straight away of our aboriginal fanau who weren't even on the human scale until the

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: or something.

Or, or, the,

Madyx: because you create a division, it's anti relational, right? It's instant division.

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: Natural world. Human world. Well, why are we, why are we different?

Rauriki: mm.

Madyx: Aren't we from the [00:48:00] same world?

Rauriki: And it's sort of like a

Madyx: Are we not a part of that?

Rauriki: yeah. You create like a vertical hierarchy or spectrum where like a, a horizontal. Spectrum where we all at the same level and we all have uniqueness and connect at different points. And that's where I think the Vision Cube a really useful tool that we thought about. Because if you just had all of this richness in a, in a even almost physical form or in a digital form where you could look at and you could just present that and people could just interact with it and say, oh, well we are

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: Um, what does

Madyx: Thank you.

Rauriki: here to there look like? And, and my unique, um, where I live in the type of place I live and, uh, and the type of, uh, scale I wanna look at if I'm just at a, a home residential focus, or what would a city or country look like? that would be such a great tool to communicate. [00:49:00] And I think that's where we saw the value of, of, um, using generative ai. And a vision tube as a storytelling, um, mechanism, as a communication tool. Something to take this big concept and put it into just digestible images that people can, um, fill the blanks in with their mind.

Madyx: And I think even a navigation, it becomes a navigational device, right?

Rauriki: Yes.

Madyx: For people they can use it to navigate towards things that they like in it or to orient themselves.

Rauriki: yeah.

I, I like, um, you talked about the, uh, I just go, I just had to quickly Google it the long now, which is at 10,000 year clock. And I think it was like Jeff Bezos, Hey, put, put it in there or someone put it in there. Uh, to be like, you know, we wanna think along these long timeframes. That's not really a navigational tool.

That's not really, um, where are we going? That's, how long is it gonna [00:50:00] take to get somewhere? Wherever that

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: irrelevant, but I think a Vision Cube um. It could be appropriate, and you could have, you might have multiple for different scales, you know, but, but if we had this phase two, but if we had one as a, as a, yeah, as a navigational tool or something, you can inspire people and to provide clarity of the journey and not

Madyx: yeah,

Rauriki: it's gonna take a long time to get somewhere.

Uh, that that's

Madyx: yeah, yeah. But where are.

Rauriki: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and mapping it out so that we can clearly see together, is this where we want and go, no, this is one way to, to get to a final destination we all want to go on. Or is it not, do we wananga on something different? and I remember just lastly, we talked about what was the, if we were to project a vision cube for the current state, based on how we're going now, what would that look like as a contrast?[00:51:00]

Um, the antithesis of the, of the vision Cube, like the.

Madyx: Yeah,

Rauriki: Matrix, the cyberpunk 2077, the, of those things.

Madyx: yeah. Materialistic game a and what's the opposite of solar punk cyberpunk. So that's the, the anti, the anti cube, anti tester is, yeah. Materialist

Rauriki: Game A

Madyx: game. A cyberpunk.

Rauriki: that's so cool. I love this. This kind of, um.

Madyx: Yeah, but what you're saying is those two things. If it was a physical device and digital, but physical, there's something cool about it that you could take, you could share. I think why know? Because we've just, just through 2D images already, we've seen tremendous reaction, interest, and development of different people's own internal understanding , of what we're talking about here and this, so [00:52:00] this device would be incredible for allowing everyone, no matter how much time you had to invest in it, to have your own thoughts, form your own thoughts, have an ability to see this thing and make decisions.

If you want to align with that and say, yes, I'd like to, it allows people to, I think, quickly get a sense of what it is, quickly get a sense of where this thing is going and be able to make a decision. An informed decision if they would like to be a part of that, if they'd like to put their support behind it,

Rauriki: a vision cube where you could get pull apart and look at each part of that cube and be

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: this is cool. This is what I like here. I'd like to see myself in this, or this would be better. And then,

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: being able to use that as a sense making tool to figure out do we, is this something that, that's cool?

Nah, that's work it. What a cool, what a cool session.

Madyx: It's the building blocks for people to be able to interact with what we're talking about and to be a part. [00:53:00] In an appropriate scale to them of contributing to the direction of a new civilization, right? Like everyone is gonna have a different amount of interest, ability, capacity. And what I think what we've talked about, the vision Cube doing is often what traditional governments philanthropics, not-for-profits do now, is they sort of just come to people and they're like, what do you guys want for this?

What do you guys want for this? And they might bring rudimentary building blocks for them to play, for play with. That's a best case scenario. But I think what we're talking about with the Vision Cube, the Te vision test wreck, is it's a much more rich, uh, container of building blocks for them to go, I like this, I like this.

I don't like this. This is cool. You know? And it's a way I think that empowers people right to contribute without having to, like you and me start, try and start a whole, you know.

Rauriki: So,[00:54:00]

Madyx: Right. Like, not everyone's gonna do that. And it gives, it'll, it makes it more equitable, right? For people to contribute to a collective vision.

Rauriki: and it minimizes the barrier to entry into this discussion because you can just see it immediately touch it and, and interact with it.

Madyx: You got time for one more thing, or do you wanna do,

Rauriki: No, that's all good. That's cool. I'm just, oh, I'm just so happy with this exploration, this session that we've kind of a lot of these thoughts, but seeing the, the, the duality, the dichotomy maybe

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: um, the animus material, the game, the game be cyberpunk, solar, punk, the future, the, the extraction and the relational scale, and, and them just being on two different trajectories and two different cubes people can just grab and see and be like, wow, I wanna input it this way. I see this and. I see myself in this type of [00:55:00] future and this is something worth getting up for to create that. Wick.

Madyx: Yeah, I love that last piece and I think there's a lot for us to reflect on. I think the realization around, you know, you're like, how do we measure this other thing though? And then just like, what can we measure the quality and the the amount of relationships and to conceive of that as a motivation for exploration to increase and grow this.

Beautiful network of connectivity and to add more richness to all the sub-components, all the learnings and the wisdom of scale and variance and learning from elegant systems,

Rauriki: Hmm.

Madyx: forests and trees, like so much dense wisdom, but also I think practical ways to conceive of how, how do we organize this? What is the social, um, motivation for the civilization?

How do we measure progress or conceive of progress? And we've already, there's some tangible things there. [00:56:00] Um, and this leads me onto the other thing that I wanted to discuss, which was, um, I, we've mentioned this video, this tri log that, um, Daniel Stenberg had with get their names John Verbeck and, um, Ian McGilchrist and one of, and they're talking about.

There was, there is a sacred dimension to existence. Um, without, without making it religious or not. But there was something that trans, there was a transcendent component to existence. And that thing in of itself, um, in a relationship. With that sacred provides tremendous meaning to people, and in it of itself is a reason just to explore, to just explore this infinite, infinite, uh, transcendent sacred realm that [00:57:00] has a relationship with a sort of more physical world.

And that itself was like basically an infinite reservoir of why to fuel a very meaningful life and society. I don't know, I just thought it was interesting to, to, to pose that to you, the role of the sacred in this animus solar punk game be civilization, the role of the sacred in social architecture.

Rauriki: Yeah, that's a, that's a tricky one. There is. Um, but it is present, like in our local animus nude here in ta Maori, there is, um, there's the, the terrestrial knowledge and the things that are here, and there's the extra terrestrial, but what's the word? Um, the Maori word is the, and the things that are of, of here, and then things that are of the realm above. And, um.

Madyx: Co cosmic realm, or I don't, yeah.

Rauriki: yeah. Um, or the physical [00:58:00] and the metaphysical and having a strong, yeah, like, I like how you articulated, you have an, an infinite source of why, you know, and drive to, to do things, to, um, to gain inspiration from and to gain strength from. And I think if those sources are linked to our t to our ecosystems as well, then that, that is a symbiotic relation.

I, I like the idea that um, the physical here as a representation also of the metaphysical, because if you put something spiritual or metaphysical somewhere else that's not here, that I can't physically see or, or engage with or, or practice or, or immersed myself in, um. Then it removes your relationship with our planet and our environment.

But if it's embedded within, if the spirituality [00:59:00] exists within the environment and within our ecosystems, then a relational, um, way of being can exist. And I think that's within, within Tao Maori at least. And it's drawing from that animus perspective, the di uh,

Madyx: I think,

Rauriki: of our environment. But yeah, now

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: of, that's my 2 cents.

Madyx: If you use an animus outlook, there's whatever the problem is. Obviously we know the words are very, they're loaded with baggage. But if we try to view them without historical baggage, if we just try to use the word sacred or

Rauriki: animus.

Madyx: Yeah, the neo outlook true in the neo, in a neo animus worldview, you know, the sacred is, um, present in everything.

I. The animating force, this transcendent component, it's not separate. It's, it might, there might be [01:00:00] vast other realms that we have no idea, but it's also equally present here is equally present everywhere that we have a, so,

Rauriki: and it's, it may not be fully here with us, but it is represented, it

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: here. Um,

Madyx: You know, in a way that's appropriate to this.

Rauriki: man, I like, um, this is a side note, but also relative as related as everything is, but remember looking at the oatmeal, you know, the oatmeal, this is an old kind of, um, oh, it was like this old blog, little funny things. And they did one about the, um, mantis shrimp. so

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: shrimp, so there's ruthless creature in the sea, you know, like it's like can crush its hand and could like mini explosions, heaps of stuff.

It's wicked, but

Madyx: Wow.

Rauriki: the, I. I talked about it's eyesight and its vision, and dogs have two like cones of sight. So they see black and white, whatever. We have three, I think, and it's got like seven or something. um,

Madyx: Oh

Rauriki: so it talked about when it, when we see a rainbow, we see all the [01:01:00] colors, you know, the spectrum of light that we can observe and it's it, and it was right in it that said, a mantis shrimp sneezes a rainbow, it must just look like an explosion of like infrared uv, every, everything. Um, so you know, we, we can see and experience what we can well with within our sensory cape capacity to experience. Um, and what else we can't see or what else we can't observe may be there but we just put maybe may not be able to

Madyx: yeah.

Rauriki: and pick it up. And there's probably a lot of things that we have, um, you know, that we are limited to observe. maybe that's all we need and that's all we need to understand. And everything else beyond requires something else. Um, maybe we sense that with our, with our belief or with our faith in something or within, or within something spiritual. Maybe that's what that is. Maybe our, our lack of physical sensory capacity

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: [01:02:00] it is put somewhere else.

Um,

Madyx: Yeah, that's definitely the wise position to take is that there's very likely way more, well, you've articulated like in a scientific way how we know for a fact there's many channels of information, which we are not with human sense organs are not observing, and who knows how many more channels of information.

Exists that even scientifically we can't measure yet. So the wise approach Yeah. Is, as you've outlined to assume there's vastly more happening than we are aware of. And the reason they bring up sacred, the sacred and stuff, I think they're talking about the meta crisis and the emotional drivers. There's some really cool stuff about left and right hemisphere that I won't go into now, but they're talking about the epidemic of loneliness and how the, uh, for many people don't have any relationship to the sacred or divine in their lives.

And [01:03:00] that conversely, when you do have an, uh, actual day-to-day connection or relationship with that, that it can provide a lot of meaning to someone's life. But it makes me think, you know, game B talks about this a lot, a lot of, I think wise traditions talk about you have to work with, with things as holes, um, to get the most accurate.

Sense of them and if these other components of existence, sacred, transcendent, whatever labels we wanna put, if they're part of this whole, then if our architecture doesn't deal with them, you know, I think we'll always have this huge blind spot and in the very least, acknowledging them even for now, even if that's the most we can do.

I think like that's just a, a wise approach for us in laying out a proposed social architecture. Right. And I guess, yeah, to deny that those things have always been a part of a human experience and [01:04:00] that there's much, we can't a measure that's the best starting point, right, I guess is what I'm saying.

Rauriki: the, the known unknowns for us.

Madyx: Yeah.

Rauriki: And then the unknown unknowns are there, there too. We know they're there um. Yeah, we wouldn't be doing it. We'll be doing a disservice if we didn't acknowledge that part within our, within our whole society. It can't just be that because we would be then migrating to a materialist. Everything that's, that I can touch.

Madyx: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Rauriki: That's gonna be tricky too. Like tricky to capture and articulate. and, um,

Madyx: It's so loaded.

Rauriki: and I'll, that's probably a part of, yeah, the big, our big, uh, exploration and discussions when we, when we engage with other people as and as our,

Madyx: Hmm.

Rauriki: as our, um, call all here and ideas expand and we bring other people into flesh, things out.

That's, I think that'll be a really critical part that we need to [01:05:00] collaborate on

Madyx: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Rauriki: know, collectively crowdsource, what do they call when you, yeah. Open source, that

Madyx: Yeah. Crowdsource. Yeah. Well, it made me think that, you know, animus is a distributed system of divinity, right? Because it's distributed amongst all things. Very much like some of these distributed blockchain Web3 systems in that sense. And I think there's general principles when you talk about this very loaded area, um, of sacred divine religion is it always gets dangerous and there's a bit like a cult.

When it has to be mediated by an official, you get into risky territories. But in an sense, it's the, the, the, the living consciousness, the life force is present in all things. So anyone can have a relational experience with that. They don't need a mediating expert [01:06:00] to tell them what it's thinking, right?

Anywhere they go and everything, and every object in every place, there's a level of that. Other thing that, that sacred thing, and they can have a direct experience of it. And so that's why I think Mann has a lot of inbuilt safety protocols. Any humans are very clever. We can abuse anything and I'm sure we will.

But I think we talked about things that at least you, when you return back to the core of it, it's a very healthy core, I think. And it'll help provide stability on fleshing out that component of this social architecture.

Rauriki: Um, yeah, definitely. I was gonna go and add some more, but, um, we'll see for next time.

Madyx: Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it's just, uh, just, it's good to put it on the radar. And like you said, that might be something that's redressed later, but it's part, we only trying to work in holes, right? We're not trying to exclude someone and be like, oh, that does, that's [01:07:00] for something else. Everything is for everything, you know?

But.

Rauriki: The whole, the whole experience.

Madyx: A hundred percent.

Rauriki: Well, that's us. I think that wraps up. Does that wrap up socio craft in the future? Episode five. Any

Madyx: I just,

Rauriki: aren't too sure.

Madyx: I wanted to say the same thing, but then I was like, is it four or five? Um, let me see. I think it's four. Feels like we've done so many more.

Rauriki: we've done

Madyx: We gotta step up, but that's good. This is second week in a row of actually doing

Rauriki: Consistency is key.

Madyx: episode four

Rauriki: we'll play the outro credits, the outro song.​

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